ICANN complaint against Telnames

Freedom for .tel wrote:Just want to let
you know about
this e-mail response:

ICANN is in receipt of your complaint regarding the .TEL Registry Operator. ICANN is investigating your claims to determine if the .TEL Registry Agreement http://www.icann.org/en/about/agreements/registries/tel has been breached. If it is determined that the .TEL Registry Agreement has been breached, ICANN will take appropriate compliance action.

Thank you for contacting ICANN regarding this important matter.

Sincerely,

ICANN Contractual Compliance

@Freedom for .tel

Have ICANN given you any idea yet about when the adjudication of your formal complaint will be completed ?

http://MikeSeaton.tel

mikeseaton wrote:@Freedom for .tel

Have ICANN given you any idea yet about when the adjudication of your formal complaint will be completed ?

http://MikeSeaton.tel

No, and I've no
idea if they will.

When I wrote to ICANN the first time, I got the following answer:

If you have a complaint concerning a sponsoring registrar for a domain name, please feel free to file a report with ICANN using the following link: http://reports.internic.net/cgi/registrars/problem-report.cgi

These reports are reviewed by ICANN staff and sent to the registrar for handling, if deemed appropriate.

After submitting the form I got the following response:

Thank you for your report. We're sorry that you have experienced trouble with your domain registration. We have sent your problem report to ICANN, which will forward it to your registrar. We hope you will be able to resolve the matter to your satisfaction.

ICANN will review your problem report and use it in establishing long-term registrar policy.

For a complete list of ICANN-accredited registrars, please visit http://www.icann.org/registrars/accredited-list.html.

I don't know if ICANN confused the terms "registry" and "registrar", because beside other issues (similar to the facts discussed in this topic) I have complained about a registry (Telnic) acting as a registrar (Telnames). There was no category for this matter, so I choose "Registrar Customer Service". The funny thing is I complained about a registrar which is not listed at ICANN. But Telnames is hardly only a reseller for Key Systems. Of course Telnames hasn't applied at ICANN for accreditation, because due to the ownership by Telnic they can't.

mikeseaton wrote:

mikeseaton wrote:Would be nice to know the future of the Telnames template !

How the **** can those involved with .tel plan ahead with such uncertainty around ?

Presumably the customers would be transferred to an existing Telnic Registrar, in that case the Telnames template would have to go to that registrar as well.

As far as I can see it wouldn't go to the other proxy, so trying to force it too without taking proper legal advice about who owns what is just shooting us all in the foot.

My understanding is that the theme is the intellectual property of telnames, the theme doesn't belong to telnic as telnic didn't pay for the "independent" software development telnic only paid for the base software it provides free to anyone to display the stored content, and regardless of if your claim is that the modified software still belongs to telnic a THEME and a Modified "software engine" are two separate components.

So I believe the rights belong to a business that has no or very little legal or formal agreement with Icann to do or provide anything, they just have an agreement/deal with a 3rd party registry to develop and resell services.

So all I see is that you're trying to put them out of business without paying for proper legal advice, just reading Icann's they can and can't list is not sufficient to qualify as a real complaint if you haven't seen an intellectual property lawyer first, and as much as I would like to see everyone have access to the telnames theme I tend to live in a reality I hope is a point of view based on actual facts and understand that regardless of what affiliation telnames staff have with the telnic business they are both separate businesses with separate legal agreements on paper, and anything developed by telnames eg a theme (which is a brand) is owned by telnames and can't be legally forced to be provided to another company.

Eg if I make a company that sticks my brand Label on a "bought in bulk" coca cola bottle, that your company provides to many other businesses who can and do the same with their own brand labels, a customer can't complain that they don't like the quality of buying when it's sold without my brand label, it's the same underlying product but you don't have any rights to my brand, and that customer can't force my brand to be handed over to your company as it belongs to me, and I can stick it on any other bottle I want should your bottle no longer be available to me to do so.

What you will find is that if telnames goes out of business, you won't get the theme and telnames staff may just make an about.me type site with it and not bother with the DNS tech as it seems to becoming irrelevant to the end customer who doesn't know or care about it.

So in reality I believe you wont ever get the telnames "brand" aka the theme because if you put them out of business, you're A. shooting us all in the foot over your own inability to just accept what life is offering and B. living in a reality that's not connected to this one, and not only that you're contributing to the destruction of every future start up that would have had a massive boost with a telnames branded theme.

So to recap I believe on paper telnic and telnames are different companies with different agreements and telnames has no agreement with Iccan as far as I can see, I would only see that the 3rd party registrar would be forced to stop allowing telnames to be an independent developer aka a contracted company.

And I believe ICCAN can't force a 3rd party company to give their brand and software to telnic even though telnic are the same people that your/their complaint seeks to destroy.

I don't think the question if Telnames acts within legal framework is the real problem.
Customers are just angry at Telnic for not providing the service which has been expected (and promised before).
I can understand that, because .tel owners want to start developing their .tels.
But they can't if they are not willing to pay the higher Telnames price.
And even if they do, they can't use folders at Telnames.
In addition it is visible already that Telnames hasn't increased the popularity of .tel.
Customers are just frustrated seeing Telnic running in the wrong direction many times.
And if Telnic would have reacted (or at least answered) to the many complaints directed to them, customers won't approach ICANN now!

@fustachio.tel

What verbose nonsense !

@TelFan

Precisely !

http://MikeSeaton.tel

What is nonsense is this issue of reporting to ICANN. I gave my reasons why a long time ago - nothing will happen but in the meantime you sit on domain names, don't develop, complain and make the TLD sound bad. It's working for others and many are working to improve it. You guys aren't helping.
Mark

kprobe wrote:What is nonsense is this issue of reporting to ICANN. I gave my reasons why a long time ago - nothing will happen but in the meantime you sit on domain names, don't develop, complain and make the TLD sound bad. It's working for others and many are working to improve it. You guys aren't helping.
Mark

A valid comment.
On the other side: How Telnic can be convinced to improve their product the right way after they gave up communicating with their customers?
Don't you agree Telnic got a lot of reasonable and important suggestions to improve .tel, but even the smallest developments have never happened?

Sunrise wrote:How Telnic can be convinced to improve their product the right way after they gave up communicating with their customers?
Don't you agree Telnic got a lot of reasonable and important suggestions to improve .tel, but even the smallest developments have never happened?

That's my point! It doesn't matter what people think about .tel or Telnic, because who cares anyway as long .tel has not the slightest recognition by the public? At the moment it is important for Telnic to realize what is really missing to lead .tel into the market. Since Telnic have decided to ignore all reasonable suggestions from so many sides, Telnic really has to understand they have to change their way of thinking. It is not the case we want to fight against Telnic, but Telnic has ignored so much valuable input. .tel could have been a huge success already if Telnic wouldn't close their eyes. Yes, perhaps it won't bring anything if we talk to ICANN, but has anybody a better idea to make Telnic talking to their community again? And one last question: Does anybody thinks Telnic treat their customers fairly by shutting down all communication and not keeping development promises (roadmap)?

directtel wrote: but has anybody a better idea to make Telnic talking to their community again? And one last question: Does anybody thinks Telnic treat their customers fairly by shutting down all communication and not keeping development promises (roadmap)?

The suggestion was given to approach telnic with examples of what the .tel community (coherent voice) needs (so long as it is possible within the limited structure/format of the backend .tel system)

Sunrise wrote:Yes, perhaps it won't bring anything if we talk to ICANN, but [b]has anybody a better idea to make Telnic talking to their community again?

I personally also do not believe that ICANN will has a desire to change something.

The better idea could be to talk to shareholders of Telnic who invested their 35,000,000 and which money, by my personal opinion, now are spending mostly not on development but on "dolce vita". They should have a power to put right people to the right places in Telnic, and in this way to save their investments and to get profit from that enterprise, which now, as I see it with my understandings of situation, successively sinks down.

Why investors and shareholders of Telnic are so passive, it is a great mystery for me. It seems for me that it is unlikely that they (investors) could have their profit in bancroting Telnic. When what could be the reasons of their silence then?

I was going to write a response to the "Don't complain about unfair business practices, just accept that a company can do whatever it likes and be grateful for anything they decide to give you, or not, as the case may be" posts that some make, but it's all been covered before by so many of Telnic's customers on this forum.

Here's just a couple of the many examples:

mikeseaton wrote:

Sunrise wrote:It looks like that Telnic don't like the feedback from their customers, because it isn't pleasant.
Telnic have to ask themselves why they earn so much criticism.

Honestly the reasons are very easy to identify:
1.) Announcing software enhancements and canceling them (roadmap)
2.) Stopping all kind of information
3.) Not responding to complains
4.) Slow development
5.) Irritating customers by creating Telnames without any explanation about this strategy

Well said Sunrise, it's about time a more business like approach was taken with .tel !

It's NOT an academic community exercise, ASK the investors who put up $35,000,000 and they will tell you it's a serious business investment that needs customers, new and repeat, to survive.

So if Telnic takes actions, such as creating a new desirable Telnames template and then denies it to all existing Telnic customers that is NOT good business practice, and will rightly result in complaints from .tel owners who just want to see .tel succeed worldwide.

Let's face it, after 3.5 years there are only just over 2K .tel owners with the new Telnames template, which quite clearly is the future face of .tel - ZERO marketing is being done now for the old Telnic (sometimes called Pro) templates.

So please stop treating .tel as an academic community exercise, internet business success doesn't happen like that, and realise that to succeed Telnic/Telnames needs to take a leaf out of Apple's book:

Give Customers What They Want (Or Can Be Persuaded To Desire) And They Will Keep Coming Back For More - It's Not Rocket Science !

http://MikeSeaton.tel

Boracay wrote:

directtel wrote: but has anybody a better idea to make Telnic talking to their community again? And one last question: Does anybody thinks Telnic treat their customers fairly by shutting down all communication and not keeping development promises (roadmap)?

The suggestion was given to approach telnic with examples of what the .tel community (coherent voice) needs (so long as it is possible within the limited structure/format of the backend .tel system)

Didn't this happen many times?

directtel wrote:has anybody a better idea to make Telnic talking to their community again?

It's impossible to get information about what they are doing or planning and why all requests from customers never get implemented.

Like others I'm convinced that nobody would have ever complaint about Telnames if Telnic would have realized the same quality for their customers.

Got this from ICANN
last evening:

Please be advised that your complaint below is being addressed with the registry operator.

Once the Compliance process is concluded you will be updated with the findings.

Sincerely,

As seen during this discussion not everybody is excited about this initiative, but in my opinion it can be only good if Telnic get forced a) to give a statement about the future of Telnic versus Telnames, b) to reactivate the work at Telnic and c) to consider customer wishes.

Freedom for .tel wrote:Got this from ICANN
last evening:

Please be advised that your complaint below is being addressed with the registry operator.

Once the Compliance process is concluded you will be updated with the findings.

Sincerely,

Very good!
After Telnic don't speak to us anymore, for the first time since long we have the chance to get a statement.
Probably not much will change, but at least we want to hear what the future of Telnic is!

Sunrise wrote:

Freedom for .tel wrote:Got this from ICANN
last evening:

Please be advised that your complaint below is being addressed with the registry operator.

Once the Compliance process is concluded you will be updated with the findings.

Sincerely,

Very good!
After Telnic don't speak to us anymore, for the first time since long we have the chance to get a statement.
Probably not much will change, but at least we want to hear what the future of Telnic is!

Agreed - that's the very least Telnic owe the software developers, domain investors and power users who have kept .tel afloat for the last 3.5 years !

http://MikeSeaton.tel

once again telnic didn't act wisely
why they couldn't answer the overwhelming questions for a little bit of information?
now telnic has to give the information to ICANN instead

I also filed a complaint at ICANN about the service at Telnic, but I have never received a reply.

GordonWallash wrote:I also filed a complaint at ICANN about the service at Telnic, but I have never received a reply.

ICANN has closed my complaint after forwarding it to Telnic only:

Thank you for submitting your complaint. Your complaint has been forwarded to the registry operator.

Sincerely,

ICANN Contractual Compliance

Ticket Details
Department: Registrar Service
Priority: Medium
Status: Closed

If I won't get further notice, I will inquire again.

A day before yesterday plans of VeriSign to rise prices of .COMs were rejected. As I understand, that was done because of position of U.S. Deparment of Commerce: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/amendment_32_11292012.pdf

So, not only ICANN and company's shareholders can influence the registrar, but country's Commerce Department also. Now I will sleep better - before that, fearing of that possible increase of COMs price, I spent a lot of money to renew my COMs for few years ahead.

I just lost my last hope:

Thank you for submitting your complaint regarding Telnic Limited.

ICANN’s authority is contractual and does not extend beyond the provisions of the .TEL Agreement (at http://www.icann.org/en/about/agreements/registries/tel/tel-agreement-07apr06-en.htm). Your customer service related claims (e.g. marketing decisions, software development plans, specific rules for participating in the Telnic Forum and enhancements to .TEL names) regarding Telnic Limited are outside of ICANN’s contract authority. However, you can contact Telnic Limited directly to inquire about your customer service concerns.

Based on your complaint, ICANN inquired about Telnic Limited’s compliance with the following .TEL Agreement provisions:

1. Article III 1.(g) - General Obligations of Registry Operator to Sponsored Community.
2. Article VII 1.(a) - Access to Registry Services
3. Part 1, 3(e) and (f) of the .TEL Charter – Management of the sTLD

Telnic Limited demonstrated compliance with the above provisions and therefore ICANN considers this matter closed.


Sincerely,

ICANN Contractual Compliance

What else can we do
to make Telnic bringing
attention to its customers?

No answer to this question:
http://www.teltalk.org/t642-is-telnames-allowed-to-sell-domains