Hyphens in domain names

by Telnic 2014-12-31, 5:38 pm

Telnic

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Post n°1

Hyphens in domain names

by Telnic 2014-12-31, 5:38 pm

RonMunson

10-27-2009 06:57 AM

Hyphens in domain names

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2028)
Interesting statement. Hope you have salt and/or ketchup ! :cool:

[size]
Most people disagree with me on this item. Can anyone show me a domain with a dash in it that is currently on top of the search engines? I may be wrong but I haven't seen any recently for at least competitive names.

To clarify things I'm talking about a dash before the .com/.ca/.tel. Dashes after this are common practice.[/size]

dottel

10-27-2009 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonMunson (Post 2049)
Most people disagree with me on this item. Can anyone show me a domain with a dash in it that is currently on top of the search engines? I may be wrong but I haven't seen any recently for at least competitive names.

To clarify things I'm talking about a dash before the .com/.ca/.tel. Dashes after this are common practice.

[size]
http://www.merriam-webster.com/

Code:
[/size]

Code:: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=iphone+cases&aq=f&aqi=g10&oq=&fp=2e93c5e763c5730c

[size]
there are many.......[/size]

telrific

10-27-2009 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonMunson (Post 2049)
Can anyone show me a domain with a dash in it that is currently on top of the search engines?

[size]
1.

There are actually quite a few, Google doesn't penalize and I've seen quite a few that rank over their non-hyphen counterparts, if I come across some again, I'll post.

MORE importantly, we're talking about Telpages, and so ...

2.

Q. " Which will rank first in Telpages, hyphen or non-hyphen ? "

A. "... In the case of domains, the standard is the hyphen. You do not want
the parser to figure out on its own that johnnysmith.tel
is in fact:
Johnny Smith

and not:
john Nysmith

Help the parser as much as you can. But then again, you have to weigh
this against the attractiveness to human beings, so that's up to you
to decide.

Best,
Henri "

Hyphens get top in Telpages ranking, Non-Hyphens get top in "attractiveness" :eek:

Sounds like a fair tradeoff - Kash said "get both" in true entrepreneur spirit (and help) !

3.

And finally, for what it's worth from just last month:

http://www.dnjournal.com/archive/dom...9/20090923.htm[/size]

dottel

10-27-2009 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2059)
1.

2.

Q. " Which will rank first in Telpages, hyphen or non-hyphen ? "

A. "... In the case of domains, the standard is the hyphen. You do not want
the parser to figure out on its own that johnnysmith.tel
is in fact:
Johnny Smith

and not:
john Nysmith

Help the parser as much as you can. But then again, you have to weigh
this against the attractiveness to human beings, so that's up to you
to decide.

Best,
Henri "

Hyphens get top in Telpages ranking, Non-Hyphens get top in "attractiveness" :eek:

Sounds like a fair tradeoff - Kash said "get both" in true entrepreneur spirit (and help) !

[size]
Apart from being accurate results and all that stuff, the algorithm is the foundation for the telpages or any search engine. This algo should be kept secret. The discussion around which is better does not simply depends on '-' or non-hypen. Because there are many factors like quality (both on-page and off-page), developement, usage and the project objectives. My suggestion would be an optimised evaluation of all the factors rather than simply ranking just based on hypen ("-") or non-hypen :)[/size]

telrific

10-27-2009 02:17 PM

Telpages is a Failure Already ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dottel (Post 2062)
Apart from being accurate results and all that stuff, the algorithm is the foundation for the telpages or any search engine. This algo should be kept secret.

[size]
Directories don't have "algorithms" per se.

Order is not a secret, popularity contests and games of chance are.

Intelligence and Intellectual Property Rights serve Order First, Secrets Second.

If Telpages is just another game, I'll stick to the REAL reference materials for order.

YellowPages, etc. will certainly appreciate the ignorance.

Just look at Jepaa and Qwista vs YellowPages, the "Secret" is a JOKE ! :p

Dictionary.com and Wikipedia.com don't use algorithms, that's the "secret" to their success.

They took "Books" and made a better "Online Directory" too, but it's not a JOKE like Qwista and Jepaa.

Hopefully Telnic is as wise with Telpages

Quoted from a different Thread:

Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by RonMunson
I follow and I agree with most of this post but... linking should also have a lot of weight. As much as the domain in my opinion.

[size]

And that's exactly where I disagree 1000% ... (or more)

Justin Hayward (not Moody Blues) is just as valuable as Justin Hayward (Moody Blues), regardless of popularity, links, or anything.

ALL Intellectual Property Rights serve the "First Come, First Served" Basis, and this is exactly how a DIRECTORY should work, REGARDLESS of popularity.

If I go to the USPTO and lookup Champion, I get many results, with the secondary information available to discern if I so choose.

People, Business Names, Categories, Etc. are no different.

Many people know Justin Hayward of Telnic and have never heard of Justin Hayward of Moody Blues.

If Google wants to serve a Popularity contest, so be it, that's its claim to fame. ( .tel works just fine in their Popularity Contest if that's what you're after )

For a "Telephone Book" Intellectual Property Rights Should Be The Basis - Telpages.

Yahoo.tel was actually taken on an ANTI intellectual property rights basis, and I hope because of the POPULARITY contest, Justin Hayward (not Moody Blues) doesn't get the same SHAFT.

Michael Jackson ( not Moody Living ) should NEVER be relevant over Michael Jackson ( my live, white, can't dance or sing friend that's a plumber ) if he registered that name first.

Disney.tel with only 1 link should come up in a search for Disney EVERY time, etc.

If the concern is for the popularity contest, pass the hat from your fans and make an offer, or promote "MJ.tel" to your lemmings.

There's a time and a place for a popularity contest, this DEFINITELY isn't it.

The parser should look 100% at the domain first, domain label second, subdomain third, subdomain label 4th, everyone is served.
(or some combination of ...)[/size]

nadya

10-27-2009 02:29 PM

Folks, the topic seems to be going astray into a discussion of hyphens - no hyphens. Shall I move posts related to this topic to a new thread?

telrific

10-27-2009 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nadya (Post 2064)
Folks, the topic seems to be going astray into a discussion of hyphens - no hyphens. Shall I move posts related to this topic to a new thread?

[size]
Yes, it did, didn't it.

Wasn't so much hyphen or not as Popular or Not, but,

No need to move it, I'm done.[/size]

dottel

10-27-2009 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2063)
Directories don't have "algorithms" per se.

Order is not a secret, popularity contests and games of chance are.

Intelligence and Intellectual Property Rights serve Order First, Secrets Second.

[size]
Firstly, I perceived it as a search engine (as I read some discussion what should come up first & so on) and my reference was towards the same, If I thought it as some default directory I would not even replied.

By the way Search engines are different from default web directories.[/size]

dottel

10-27-2009 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nadya (Post 2064)
Folks, the topic seems to be going astray into a discussion of hyphens - no hyphens. Shall I move posts related to this topic to a new thread?

[size]
Yes it is.
I guess you should do it, may be club these post to the existing telpage discussion?[/size]

telrific

10-27-2009 04:46 PM

Quote:

Yes it is.
I guess you should do it, may be club these post to the existing telpage discussion?

[size]
Ending here was apparently trumped.

Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by dottel (Post 2066)

By the way Search engines are different from default web directories.

[size]

Of course they are, we all understand that, however, Telephone Books are Directories, and Telephone Books on the Web are Web Directories, even if they use an algorithm to search for the list of accurate, ordered results ... the list of accurate, ordered results is the key in the end.

No one is going to listen to the claim of the World's First Global Directory and NOT laugh at Qwista, Jepaa, or any other "Potluck Surprise Algorithm" "accuracy".

Nor will it be used or trusted over a YellowPages style.

Google can get away with it because no one expects it to produce anything but potluck surprise for a Universe of information, and then, caveat emptor as always !

Isolated information such as a Telephone Book (contact information), Encyclopedia, or Dictionary cannot get away with the same "potluck algorithm" for it's contents and accuracy

If you choose isolated information, you're a bit stuck is all. ( You'll notice the Google game is suffering, so they're scrambling for ordered/titled/intellectual property lists )

The proper offering I suppose if you have to use a popularity contest would be a 3-fold radio button offering the following under the search bar:

O .tel Domain Listings O Secret Algorithm Surprise O Advanced Field Search

:confused:[/size]

nadya

10-27-2009 05:18 PM

Hyphens in domain names

Posts moved from a different topic for consistency

telrific

10-27-2009 05:44 PM

Quote:

The discussion around which is better does not simply depends on '-' or non-hypen. Because there are many factors like quality (both on-page and off-page), developement, usage and the project objectives. My suggestion would be an optimised evaluation of all the factors rather than simply ranking just based on hypen ("-") or non-hypen

[size]
But the question to Kash and Henri prior to general availability was two-fold:

1. Will the Domain Name Take Precedent Over Other Factors in Telpages.com Results ? Answered Yes
2. Which Domain Name in Telpages.com Results Will Take Precedent, Hyphen or Non-Hyphen ? Answered Hyphen

Other factors are apparently only relevant AFTER these are listed as the primary results.

If you can't trust the CEO and CTO of Telnic, who can you trust ? They're trustworthy I'm sure ! :)[/size]

telrific

10-27-2009 06:31 PM

Simply put ...

If someone approaches me and asks me to be included as a person or business to:

Yellowpages.com

1. I check it out, type in whatever, and
2. I see results, and
3. I say "Tell me more" ...

Jepaa.com, Telhive.com, Qwista.com

1. I check it out, type in whatever, and
2. I see results, and ask "Okay, where's the camera, jokes on me, right ?"
3. I hear "No, We're Serious", and I say "Oh, Sorry, Uh, Thanks, but No Thanks, and Good Luck !"

As would most ... really.

dottel

10-28-2009 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2068)
Ending here was apparently trumped.

Of course they are, we all understand that, however, Telephone Books are Directories, and Telephone Books on the Web are Web Directories, even if they use an algorithm to search for the list of accurate, ordered results ... the list of accurate, ordered results is the key in the end.

No one is going to listen to the claim of the World's First Global Directory and NOT laugh at Qwista, Jepaa, or any other "Potluck Surprise Algorithm" "accuracy".

Nor will it be used or trusted over a YellowPages style.

Google can get away with it because no one expects it to produce anything but potluck surprise for a Universe of information, and then, caveat emptor as always !

Isolated information such as a Telephone Book (contact information), Encyclopedia, or Dictionary cannot get away with the same "potluck algorithm" for it's contents and accuracy

If you choose isolated information, you're a bit stuck is all. ( You'll notice the Google game is suffering, so they're scrambling for ordered/titled/intellectual property lists )

The proper offering I suppose if you have to use a popularity contest would be a 3-fold radio button offering the following under the search bar:

O .tel Domain Listings O Secret Algorithm Surprise O Advanced Field Search

[size]
TelPages search ----------- Browse .tel results using the official search engine, optimized for indexing .tel domains. --->http://telnic.org/community-roadmap.html[/size]

telrific

10-28-2009 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dottel (Post 2097)
TelPages search ----------- Browse .tel results using the official search engine, optimized for indexing .tel domains. --->http://telnic.org/community-roadmap.html

[size]
Yep.

Dictionary Definition

Indexing - a sequential arrangement of material, esp. in alphabetical or numerical order.

The Order is the Question (Directory Ordered by Search Engine) or (Algo-Surprise Joke Soup Ordered By Search Engine)

YellowPages uses a Search Engine to display Indexing Too ... of Ordered Lists.

So Do Others, What's your point exactly ... in case I missed it ?

The fact that it's a Search Engine has nothing to do with the Indexing the Search Engine Chooses and how it's displayed.[/size]

henri

10-28-2009 12:54 PM

Hyphen pros:
- Cuts the words the way you want it, and makes sure the search engine agrees with you

Hyphen cons:
- Some people think it's not pretty
- One more character to type

That's it.
Remember the problem of johnnysmith.tel versus john-nysmith.tel

dottel

10-29-2009 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2099)
The Order is the Question (Directory Ordered by Search Engine) or (Algo-Surprise Joke Soup Ordered By Search Engine)

YellowPages uses a Search Engine to display Indexing Too ... of Ordered Lists.

So Do Others, What's your point exactly ... in case I missed it ?

The fact that it's a Search Engine has nothing to do with the Indexing the Search Engine Chooses and how it's displayed.

[size]
Firstly, according to the roadmap it says search engine, so I assume one should not be too much worried or dictate how the results should be. Because if only "-" domains are displayed first in order then all the people who purchased non-hyphen domains will be upset. This may also influence the future .tel sales.

Regarding Google search algo, if that is just some random s#%t potluck surprise, it will not be existing for years. It's very easy to comment on some other's success but it's very hard to prove our success. I am not here to judge "this is right and that is wrong". I am just trying to convey that it would not give a good vibes to the .tel enthus..or the market if telnic declares the order of the results, this is because it could kill those .tel owners who do not fall in the said category. Lastly, it's all in the hands of Telnic and their tech team. One can only give their opinion :)[/size]

dottel

10-29-2009 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hasseily (Post 2101)
Hyphen pros:
- Cuts the words the way you want it, and makes sure the search engine agrees with you

Hyphen cons:
- Some people think it's not pretty
- One more character to type

That's it.
Remember the problem of johnnysmith.tel versus john-nysmith.tel

[size]
Yes, thats right.
I would like to add another point to the cons,
- It may be problematic to communicate the domain name over phone (verbal)[/size]

telrific

10-29-2009 12:13 PM

Quote:

Regarding Google search algo, if that is just some random s#%t potluck surprise, it will not be existing for years.

[size]
Of course it would and it has .... as a necessary ROULETTE game.

It's virtually impossible to index all web content alpha-numerically or some other accepted standard.

SEO requires daily changes and chasing and different results - random results daily.

Google, Bing, Yahoo ... Algo-Surprise because it is necessary for various reasons !

However, for ISOLATED information, accepted order is ALWAYS USED AND PREFERRED.

Yellow Pages, Wikipedia, Dictionary.com ............ NONE are Random .... OR Surprising.

If Google is "More Fun" than Yellow Pages ... and Google's Algo-Surprise CHAOS is used to exploit advertising and absorbers, so be it.

If an Isolated Information Directory takes this approach, and is not even doing it to exploit advertising ............ OUCH if it uses the algo-surprise is all.

Algo - NON - Surprise is the key ... I heard the term "exacto-bet" used where, like Google Advertising ... Exact/Phrase/Broad Domain Order is Used.

I don't make ANY claims as to what "is best", only that Algo-Surprise is a disaster, I.E. Jepaa vs. YellowPages ...

Use both and be honest, the masses will laugh at Jepaa and use YellowPages.[/size]

telrific

10-29-2009 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dottel (Post 2124)
Yes, thats right.
I would like to add another point to the cons,
- It may be problematic to communicate the domain name over phone (verbal)

[size]
HA HA HA HA !

Yeah, I always have that problem:

"Please visit Merriam dddd, dddddaa, dddddddassssssh, dash Webster dot com "

I think the communication problem is:

"How do spell Myriam ? You did say dot com right ? "

Never had a problem with dash or hyphen in 15 years verbally ....

Quote:
[/size]

This may also influence the future .tel sales

[size]
Of course it would, and it would be a positive influence to be sure !

What a GREAT thing it would be .... see tel-buy.com[/size]

by Telnic 2014-12-31, 5:38 pm

Telnic

Telnic: High-Flyer; Join date : 2014-12-30
Posts : 2903 Points : 11322
Reputation : 0
Warning level :

Post n°2

Re: Hyphens in domain names

by Telnic 2014-12-31, 5:38 pm

dottel

10-29-2009 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2127)
HA HA HA HA !
Never had a problem with dash or hyphen in 15 years verbally ....

[size]
What is so funny?
Personally I own both types (hyphens and non-hyphens). But have seen and heard from many customers, friends and even read at many places that giving out the name over phone or so is a bit difficult when it comes to domain names with hypens.

Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2127)
What a GREAT thing it would be .... see tel-buy.com

[size]
My opinion is,
The way it is displayed (the presentation) is un-professional (in other words s#cks).. Its like a link farm of all .tel domain names (no categorization).
- overlapping text
- design/layout looks broken or may be the text went beyond the length of the layout.
- The language used on the site is unprofessional (Any Je#k know the power of .tel).
- The use of caps (capital letters) is un-professional (at least they way it was used).

No offense[/size]

telrific

10-29-2009 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dottel (Post 2132)
No offense

[size]

Don't worry, no one could be offended with those comments !

Quote:
[/size]

The way it is displayed (the presentation) is un-professional (in other words s#cks)

[size]
Oh, you must have visited tel-buy.com, you're right penisland.com, etc. is unprofessional and in other words, s#cks !

I agree with you, using the hyphen is clearly the professional and intelligent thing to do !

The last thing you want is people confused by NOT using the hyphen !

As you can see, not using the hyphen, you're just making a fool of yourself through misinterpretation !

Professionals don't need laughed at, it's unprofessional !

(As for the design, he clearly used the .tel design, talk to telnic if you think that s#cks)

Quote:
[/size]

- The language used on the site is unprofessional (Any Je#k know the power of .tel).

[size]
The Movie is called "The Jerk" - get a clue, it's intentional, not unprofessional, even I get that ![/size]

telrific

10-29-2009 05:20 PM

It's been fun ... but

Enough on the Hyphen subject, Henri said it all

dottel

10-29-2009 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2133)
Oh, you must have visited tel-buy.com, you're right penisland.com, etc. is unprofessional and in other words, s#cks !

[size]
The listing of all sites with without categorizing them is unprofessional

Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2133)
I agree with you, using the hyphen is clearly the professional and intelligent thing to do !

[size]
by the way When did I say "using the hyphen is clearly the professional and intelligent thing to do?" :rolleyes:

Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2133)
As you can see, not using the hyphen, you're just making a fool of yourself through misinterpretation !

[size]
May be you should stop fooling yourself cause I never said "all non-hyphen domains are good nor all hyphen domains are good"

Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2133)
(As for the design, he clearly used the .tel design, talk to telnic if you think that s#cks)

[size]
I talk to telnic? for what? LMAO
Dude it's not my site, it's not my reference. It's my comment on the site that you have used in your reply.[/size]

RonMunson

10-30-2009 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2059)
1.

There are actually quite a few, Google doesn't penalize and I've seen quite a few that rank over their non-hyphen counterparts, if I come across some again, I'll post.

MORE importantly, we're talking about Telpages, and so ...

2.

Q. " Which will rank first in Telpages, hyphen or non-hyphen ? "

A. "... In the case of domains, the standard is the hyphen. You do not want
the parser to figure out on its own that johnnysmith.tel
is in fact:
Johnny Smith

and not:
john Nysmith

Help the parser as much as you can. But then again, you have to weigh
this against the attractiveness to human beings, so that's up to you
to decide.

Best,
Henri "

Hyphens get top in Telpages ranking, Non-Hyphens get top in "attractiveness" :eek:

Sounds like a fair tradeoff - Kash said "get both" in true entrepreneur spirit (and help) !

3.

And finally, for what it's worth from just last month:

http://www.dnjournal.com/archive/dom...9/20090923.htm

[size]
Definitely an interesting article in the dnjournal. The Germans have always been big domainers and I didn't realize that they find '-''s valueable.

My question is this. If I own Hotel-Reservations.com shouldn't I be concerned about people that spread my domain using word of mouth.

"Hey I used this site called hotel dash reservations.com. You should try them also!"

Many people would go home and type in HotelReservations.com because that is what they are trained to do. What is worse is the fact that what they will see is pretty much exactly what Hotel-Reservations.com would offer leading to the user being tricked.

There would also be a portion of people that go home and type in HotelDashReservations.com. When they put it on signs people would make the same mistakes when they get home. There is a reason why many people stay away from dash names and they fetch much lower prices on auctions.

Buying a domain that can be confused for something else is a serious problem. It usually comes down to a percentage of error. It may appear insignificant at first but as the traffic volume increases with Hotel-Reservations.com so does the traffic volume to that same percent increase.

What is really bad is the email situation. I have seen this from both sides of the fence with these issues. I saw the email traffic of a domain without the dash capture the email traffic error of a dash domain name. This included emails as small as a wife sending a message to her husband to emails as large as business proposals.

For example if I want to list my hotel chain with Hotel-Reservations and I send off an email tomanagement@HotelReservations.com the owner of HotelReservations.com would receive the email if they have set up a 'catchall' I have never heard of it happening the other way where people make a mistake thinking there was a dash in the domain.

No rejected email gets fired back to the person hotel chain owner and that person is to assume his email got ignored or forgets about it. This sort of stuff happens all the time and criples companies that make these decisions.

In my opinion I think that there are some Germans who like domains with dashes but they will over time learn their lesson that they aren't worth investing in. It is the same for companies around here that use the .net instead of .com for their main website. They have dropped like flies over the years.

The dot com versions are all hooked up to cash parking pages because of the traffic bonanza that they tapped into. :eek:[/size]

RonMunson

10-30-2009 04:13 AM

On the same note of misdirected traffic, here is another example that seriously disturbes me.

I have a hotmail account and I usually browse and type very fast. On a daily basis I visit my hotmail account at least three times a day. Once a week when typing fast I accidentially type in www.homtail.com. Everytime I do that I get the same shock at what I see and it takes me a half a second to figure out that I am not on hotmail.com.

That is a half a second tooo long.

It is very disturbing to me. It is so important that companies buy up all of their spelling mistakes and direct their traffic properly. If I own a dash, you bet I'd own the version without the dash and the spelling mistakes.

Usually however the dash isn't worth my time because if someone buys it up and tries to do something with it, it will only help my domain/company.

telrific

10-30-2009 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonMunson (Post 2144)
In my opinion I think that there are some Germans who like domains with dashes but they will over time learn their lesson that they aren't worth investing in.

[size]
You were doing good until that !

Quote:
[/size]

It is so important that companies buy up all of their spelling mistakes and direct their traffic properly. If I own a dash, you bet I'd own the version without the dash and the spelling mistakes.

[size]
And then that !

Hasn't happened as a rule yet, and never will, just like companies buying up all the .tld extensions to "protect" themselves.

People "get it wrong and help others" all the time, doesn't change "protection" habits !

Look at Yahoo.tel, and that was an easy one !

(Of course, what do they care, they're above the law anyway)

Bottom line - YOU are the one getting it wrong, helping others, looking like a fool.

Just like I do when I type in RonMonsun.com

Oops ! Better go buy that one, wait, I'm going to, hey, sell it to you ..... Whatever :rolleyes:

Your point is valid, but not a hyphen killer chief !

The examples shown on tel-buy.com (and there are millions more) prove that the dumping of non-hypens as the bad investment is critical !

Or as you stated, keep those and redirect to the hyphen version you're advertising publicly and professionally ! (the correct spelling)[/size]

telrific

10-30-2009 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dottel (Post 2141)
by the way When did I say "using the hyphen is clearly the professional and intelligent thing to do?" :rolleyes:

[size]
You didn't, and I said that as a reference to what happens in some cases if you don't, duh.

It was the whole point of viewing the tel-buy.com site, again, duh.

Quote:
[/size]

May be you should stop fooling yourself cause I never said "all non-hyphen domains are good nor all hyphen domains are good"

[size]
Huh ? No one said you did. I never said otherwise either, only that it has benefits.

I own both, and always will.

Quote:
[/size]

I talk to telnic? for what? LMAO
Dude it's not my site, it's not my reference. It's my comment on the site that you have used in your reply.

[size]
You were the one talking about poor site design, not me ! ROFLMAO

You need a cup of coffee ... or less coffee !

Nothing you've said was interpreted correctly, nor do your replies make any sense !

Perhaps English is not your native language ?[/size]

dottel

10-31-2009 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2165)
You were the one talking about poor site design, not me ! ROFLMAO

[size]
ehh? you dont make any sense ha ha ha

Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2165)
You need a cup of coffee ... or less coffee !

[size]
get a life

Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2165)
Nothing you've said was interpreted correctly

[size]
There you go..LMAO

Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2165)
nor do your replies make any sense !

[size]
Niether your replies make any sense

Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2165)
Perhaps English is not your native language ?

[size]
HA HA HA
Let me help you here, MS IT, MBA along with double degree in e-commerce and IT, that's just my qualification.
by the way that's in English
LMAO[/size]

RonMunson

10-31-2009 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2164)
Just like I do when I type in RonMonsun.com

Oops ! Better go buy that one, wait, I'm going to, hey, sell it to you ..... Whatever :rolleyes:

Your point is valid, but not a hyphen killer chief !

The examples shown on tel-buy.com (and there are millions more) prove that the dumping of non-hypens as the bad investment is critical !

Or as you stated, keep those and redirect to the hyphen version you're advertising publicly and professionally ! (the correct spelling)

[size]
If RonMunson.com were owned by myself and it received a lot of traffic buying RonMonsun.com would be in my interest only if the misdirected traffic was large enough. There are tools that can see what people type in to Google search and you can definitely gage how often spelling mistakes are made.

Recently in doing work for a client I noticed that in her area of the world more people were spelling accommodation wrong (accomodation) than were spelling it correctly.

The other day I was about to buy fireworks at a local store when in front of the store a man told me and everyone else that walked up to the store that his store sold the same fireworks but for a cheaper price. Although I could have ignored the man, I decided instead to go to his store instead since I assumed he was telling the truth about the prices.

The original store lost this customer and many more. My point is misdirected traffic is a huge problem for web businesses in the same way that dude was a huge problem for that store owner in selling fireworks.

In Vancouver BC, there are some of the biggest domainers in the world. The one that is labelled the biggest is Kevin Ham. Kevin owns a 300 million dollar empire of domains and has been featured in several magazines and newspapers. The majority of his buying practices were based on spelling mistakes. He even tried to make a deal with Cameroon about getting the traffic of unused .cm domain names to go to his pages.

There is millions of dollars in cash parking revenue made each month over domains that misdirect type in traffic.

I strongly advise anyone that wants to start up a new company to make sure they don't allow for traffic leakage. They will regret it.[/size]

telrific

11-01-2009 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonMunson (Post 2191)
If RonMunson.com were owned by myself and it received a lot of traffic buying RonMonsun.com would be in my interest only if the misdirected traffic was large enough. There are tools that can see what people type in to Google search and you can definitely gage how often spelling mistakes are made.

Recently in doing work for a client I noticed that in her area of the world more people were spelling accommodation wrong (accomodation) than were spelling it correctly.

The other day I was about to buy fireworks at a local store when in front of the store a man told me and everyone else that walked up to the store that his store sold the same fireworks but for a cheaper price. Although I could have ignored the man, I decided instead to go to his store instead since I assumed he was telling the truth about the prices.

The original store lost this customer and many more. My point is misdirected traffic is a huge problem for web businesses in the same way that dude was a huge problem for that store owner in selling fireworks.

In Vancouver BC, there are some of the biggest domainers in the world. The one that is labelled the biggest is Kevin Ham. Kevin owns a 300 million dollar empire of domains and has been featured in several magazines and newspapers. The majority of his buying practices were based on spelling mistakes. He even tried to make a deal with Cameroon about getting the traffic of unused .cm domain names to go to his pages.

There is millions of dollars in cash parking revenue made each month over domains that misdirect type in traffic.

I strongly advise anyone that wants to start up a new company to make sure they don't allow for traffic leakage. They will regret it.

[size]
I completely agree !

The point was that very few spend the time, money, or effort to do it ... or ever will !

That point stands as the current reality, right or wrong ![/size]

telrific

11-01-2009 02:52 AM

Dottel, Let's do a little review since you have so much education and intelligence:

1.
Quote:

dottel "This may also influence the future .tel sales"

[size]
2.
Quote:
[/size]

telrific "Of course it would, and it would be a positive influence to be sure !

What a GREAT thing it would be .... see tel-buy.com"

[size]
3.
Quote:
[/size]

dottel "My opinion is,
The way it is displayed (the presentation) is un-professional (in other words s#cks).. Its like a link farm of all .tel domain names (no categorization).
- overlapping text
- design/layout looks broken or may be the text went beyond the length of the layout.
- The language used on the site is unprofessional (Any Je#k know the power of .tel).
- The use of caps (capital letters) is un-professional (at least they way it was used).

[size]
I reference a website showing humorous examples of nonhypen use problems, and you go on a psycho rant about the website and design and whatever else you could apparently think of !

........ and didn't even get half of what you saw and commented on !

Guess you can buy an education, but you can't buy smarts !

Since you speak English just fine, I guess you just forgot your medication ! :eek:[/size]

dottel

11-01-2009 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2197)
Dottel, Let's do a little review since you have so much education and intelligence:

[size]
Oh yeah

Here you go..
Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2068)
Google can get away with it because no one expects it to produce anything but potluck surprise for a Universe of information, and then, caveat emptor as always !

[size]
What a smart ... we have here..
Hilarious..
The native English speaker now has a great idea, why not the investors buy your great concept and beat Google ? or may be you should launch your so called great concept value added search engine..ha ha ha

Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2197)
I reference a website showing humorous examples of nonhypen use problems, and you go on a psycho rant about the website and design and whatever else you could apparently think of !

[size]
LMAO
Use of nonhypen? LOL it's not nonhypen, the so called native English speaker it should be non-hyphen.

and the majority of the domains listed are hyphen domains

It's very clear how smart you are...LMAO
The domain name itself has a hyphen in it and the listed domains contain hyphens (majority).

1. Tel-buy is yours, so why don't you accept that, rather than saying "he clearly used the .tel design," LOL
2. When the text on reference site is overlapped and horrible, it is obvious that one comments on it.
3. Majority of the domains are hyphen so no one will ever even imagine that it could be an example/reference to the non-hyphen use of domain list. LOL

Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2197)
Guess you can buy an education, but you can't buy smarts !

[size]
So you even think that you can buy Education? LOL
What a pathetic looser you are..
Dude one can only buy an admission, it depends on the student to complete his course with his knowledge, hardwork & passion.

You native english speaker? hmm you can't even spell your native language properly LOL.
Stop trying to beat born talents.

Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2197)
Since you speak English just fine

[size]
LOL, At least I can speak OK. What about you? can you at least spell English? :eek:

You should stop day dreaming and join some college..

Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2197)
I guess you just forgot your medication ! :eek:

[size]
What a joke

I can't help people like you who has chip on shoulder. You should consult a psychiatrist for your mental illness.[/size]

telrific

11-01-2009 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dottel (Post 2215)
Oh yeah

Here you go..

What a smart ... we have here..
Hilarious..
The native English speaker now has a great idea, why not the investors buy your great concept and beat Google ? or may be you should launch your so called great concept value added search engine..ha ha ha

LMAO
Use of nonhypen? LOL it's not nonhypen, the so called native English speaker it should be non-hyphen.

and the majority of the domains listed are hyphen domains

It's very clear how smart you are...LMAO
The domain name itself has a hyphen in it and the listed domains contain hyphens (majority).

1. Tel-buy is yours, so why don't you accept that, rather than saying "he clearly used the .tel design," LOL
2. When the text on reference site is overlapped and horrible, it is obvious that one comments on it.
3. Majority of the domains are hyphen so no one will ever even imagine that it could be an example/reference to the non-hyphen use of domain list. LOL

So you even think that you can buy Education? LOL
What a pathetic looser you are..
Dude one can only buy an admission, it depends on the student to complete his course with his knowledge, hardwork & passion.

You native english speaker? hmm you can't even spell your native language properly LOL.
Stop trying to beat born talents.

LOL, At least I can speak OK. What about you? can you at least spell English? :eek:

You should stop day dreaming and join some college..

What a joke

I can't help people like you who has chip on shoulder. You should consult a psychiatrist for your mental illness.

[size]

And once again another series of comments that went right over your head ... followed by a psycho rant.

You're scary.[/size]

pink	11-01-2009 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dottel (Post 2215)
Use of nonhypen? LOL it's not nonhypen, the so called native English speaker it should be non-hyphen.

[size]
Exactly , well said dottel![/size]

telrific

11-01-2009 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dottel
Use of nonhypen? LOL it's not nonhypen, the so called native English speaker it should be non-hyphen.

[size]
Quote:
[/size]

Originally Posted by pink (Post 2223)
Exactly , well said dottel!

[size]
That was the whole point, nonhyphen is not right.

That makes two .... Maybe you two will get it on the way home.

I'll quit with the intelligent humor, it's obviously not well received.

Intelligent humor missed to psycho rant to intelligent humor missed.

But, looky there ! You two PROVED the whole point of this thread !

Hmmmmm, thanks for the help, that was toooo easy, time to move on ....

:cool:[/size]

dotteler

11-01-2009 05:02 PM

google key west and see what comes up first. It's about promotion, marketing, optimization to get results.
Since there has been so much prospecting of names some people have resorted to the hyphen to acquire .tel names. I grabbed key-west.tel since the keywest.tel was taken.

dottel

11-01-2009 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dotteler (Post 2229)
google key west and see what comes up first. It's about promotion, marketing, optimization to get results.
Since there has been so much prospecting of names some people have resorted to the hyphen to acquire .tel names. I grabbed key-west.tel since the keywest.tel was taken.

[size]
Exactly correct.
People who fail to see success in getting traffic to their websites via search engines just blame Google or other search engines.

Well developed site with value content along with strategic promotion will always a winning formula..

and doesnot rely just on something as hyphen or non-hyphen.[/size]

dottel

11-01-2009 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2227)
That was the whole point, nonhyphen is not right.

That makes two .... Maybe you two will get it on the way home.

I'll quit with the intelligent humor, it's obviously not well received.

Intelligent humor missed to psycho rant to intelligent humor missed.

But, looky there ! You two PROVED the whole point of this thread !

Hmmmmm, thanks for the help, that was toooo easy, time to move on ....

:cool:

[size]
Now I have no doubt about your mental instability, you are out off your mind.
Trying to misinterpret other member's replies to your advantage LOL
Get a life![/size]

telrific

11-01-2009 07:06 PM

Again, the fact that anything is a "search engine" does not mean anything by itself.

It still all depends on the search engine's choice of how to weight / display results.

If it's Google Search Engine then Dottel and Dotteler are 100% correct in their statements.

If it's Yellowpages Search Engine then Alphabetical is the only correct statement.

If it's Namedropper.com then the Domain Name is the only primary weight given.

Etc.

A search engine only seeks pertinent information to begin with.

What weight it gives to characteristics of that information for display is a secondary matter.

Google, Yahoo, Yellowpages.com, Wikipedia, Dictionary.com all use a search engine to locate information as requested by the user.

Once that information is found it then determines what characteristics have the most value (according to it's designers) and then makes a decision on how it should be displayed.

Alphabetically By Page Titles, By Domain Name, Popularity, Links, Fields, Etc., Etc.

The Search Engine is the "information seeker" first, "weight giver" second, "displayer" third.

This whole thread started based upon the downplaying of hyphen values, and used Henri's statements and Kash's statements concerning Telpages use of Domain Names and Hyphens vs. Non-Hyphens in displaying results.

1. Domain weight should not be downplayed in Telpages according to Kash.
2. Hyphen weight should not be downplayed in Telpages according to Henri.

ALL other stuff in this thread is using someone's idea of "Google uses this so ..."

Great, if you're thinking Google's choices, you're thinking Google's choices.

If you're thinking Yellowpages choices, you're thinking Yellowpages choices, Etc.

EVERBODY IS RIGHT AND EVERYBODY IS WRONG ....

It all depends on the Designer we're speaking of. :rolleyes:

by Telnic 2014-12-31, 5:39 pm

Telnic

Telnic: High-Flyer; Join date : 2014-12-30
Posts : 2903 Points : 11322
Reputation : 0
Warning level :

Post n°3

Re: Hyphens in domain names

by Telnic 2014-12-31, 5:39 pm

telrific

11-01-2009 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dottel (Post 2231)
Now I have no doubt about your mental instability, you are out off your mind.
Trying to misinterpret other member's replies to your advantage LOL
Get a life!

[size]
And yet again ... another scary, insulting rant from you ....[/size]

dottel

11-01-2009 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2235)
And yet again ... another scary, insulting rant from you ....

[size]
LOL everyone here can read the whole thread and see that you started the ranting or insulting :rolleyes:[/size]

telrific

11-01-2009 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dottel (Post 2238)
LOL everyone here can read the whole thread and see that you started the ranting or insulting :rolleyes:

[size]
Yeah, see, that's just it ... in your mind alone.

Here's the first bad language used:

Quote:
[/size]

some random s#%t potluck surprise

[size]
- dottel

Here's the next bad language and a rant on a webpage that missed the whole point of my reference.

Quote:
[/size]

The way it is displayed (the presentation) is un-professional (in other words s#cks).. Its like a link farm of all .tel domain names (no categorization).
- overlapping text
- design/layout looks broken or may be the text went beyond the length of the layout.
- The language used on the site is unprofessional (Any Je#k know the power of .tel).
- The use of caps (capital letters) is un-professional (at least they way it was used).

[size]
-dottel

All my replies to you used YOUR choices of language as the response.

It only escalated after many things flew over your head .... a Reference to the Non-hyphen Names on a site, a Movie Title, a nonhyphen use as an example, etc.

I understand your frustration, but YOUR choices to initiate foul language, insults, off-topic rants, missed points is ALL on YOU and is there EVERY time one reads the whole thread !

:([/size]

dottel

11-01-2009 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2239)
Yeah, see, that's just it ... in your mind alone.

[size]
Started again? LOL
Grow up[/size]

telrific

11-01-2009 07:52 PM

Isn't it amazing how the foundations for all your arguments falls to pieces and you turn to insults right away !

I guess I should use your fine examples of intelligence and maturity ?

No thanks.

dottel

11-01-2009 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2242)
Isn't it amazing how the foundations for all your arguments falls to pieces and you turn to insults right away !

I guess I should use your fine examples of intelligence and maturity ?

No thanks.

[size]
Isn't it you just reply for the sake of replying? rather than some proper meaningful inputs?[/size]

dottel

11-01-2009 08:17 PM

Your rants/insults

1. As you can see, not using the hyphen, you're just making a fool of yourself through misinterpretation !

2. You need a cup of coffee ... or less coffee ! Nothing you've said was interpreted correctly, nor do your replies make any sense ! Perhaps English is not your native language ?

3. I guess you just forgot your medication !

and so on...

To the forum MODs please be aware that this guy has edited his replies just to remove the rants/insults from his post (you can confirm this from the edited post and my quotes.

telrific

11-01-2009 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dottel (Post 2243)
Isn't it you just reply for the sake of replying? rather than some proper meaningful inputs?

[size]
And once again, with the proof of the thread available, and with no foundation for your statement, you insult.[/size]

telrific

11-01-2009 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dottel (Post 2245)
Your rants/insults

1. As you can see, not using the hyphen, you're just making a fool of yourself through misinterpretation !

2. You need a cup of coffee ... or less coffee ! Nothing you've said was interpreted correctly, nor do your replies make any sense ! Perhaps English is not your native language ?

3. I guess you just forgot your medication !

and so on...

To the forum MODs please be aware that this guy has edited his replies just to remove the rants/insults from his post (you can confirm this from the edited post and my quotes.

[size]
Those are in fact just that ... replies to you and your insults, no one else, do the math.[/size]

dottel

11-01-2009 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2246)
And once again, with the proof of the thread available, and with no foundation for your statement, you insult.

[size]
This http://www.telnic.org/forum/report.php?p=2133
shows who started this..

LOL[/size]

telrific

11-01-2009 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dottel (Post 2248)
This http://www.telnic.org/forum/report.php?p=2133
shows who started this..

LOL

[size]
That doesn't come as anything ... FYI[/size]

telrific

11-01-2009 08:33 PM

The evidence is clear, YOU misinterpreted, and then replied with foul language and insults.

THEN I replied to YOUR insults with my insults.

It was a bad choice on both our parts, I apologize for replying to your insults with my insults,
rather than taking the time to explain to you that you misinterpreted my posts.

dottel

11-01-2009 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2249)
That doesn't come as anything ... FYI

[size]
You call other member fool if they have different opinion?

FYI, did I say you "some radom sh#t potluck"? because you referenced it herehttp://www.telnic.org/forum/showpost...9&postcount=43

Mods and others can read what I referenced and in what sense I have used it herehttp://www.telnic.org/forum/showpost...3&postcount=17

That just show you how you want to intrepret other's replies to your advantage..lol[/size]

dottel

11-01-2009 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2251)
It was a bad choice on both our parts, I apologize for replying to your insults with my insults,
rather than taking the time to explain to you that you misinterpreted my posts.

[size]
Well, I think I have just replied to your insults which you started. if you are sorry for your mistakes then I have no problem in accepting your apologies.

Cheers[/size]

telrific

11-01-2009 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dottel (Post 2253)
Well, I think I have just replied to your insults which you started. if you are sorry for your mistakes then I have no problem in accepting your apologies.

Cheers

[size]
I honestly believe this did all begin as a simple misunderstanding.

Apologies due all around !

Cheers !

:)[/size]

Shahid

11-01-2009 08:54 PM

Glad to see things have patched up, i do believe we all have different views and understanding but we need to understand one thing no one knows more then anyone, its always good learn more and appreciate the one trying to teach you something even if you know, no matter what happens it always good to learn.

we all are children of GOD and we need to learn in every aspect of life, we can never be ahead of anyone as everyday is a new day and a new beginning.

dottel

11-01-2009 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shahid (Post 2257)
Glad to see things have patched up, i do believe we all have different views and understanding but we need to understand one thing no one knows more then anyone, its always good learn more and appreciate the one trying to teach you something even if you know, no matter what happens it always good to learn.

we all are children of GOD and we need to learn in every aspect of life, we can never be ahead of anyone as everyday is a new day and a new beginning.

[size]
Well said.. I agree

How is your business shahid?
Got any good domains this weekend?

Cheers[/size]

telrific

11-01-2009 08:59 PM

Group hug ?

(That's humor, not an insult)

Peace !

Shahid

11-01-2009 09:00 PM

Thank you, all is well yes grabbed

FashionDesign.tel today quite happy with it

how about you are things with u ?

Shahid

dottel

11-01-2009 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shahid (Post 2260)
Thank you, all is well yes grabbed

FashionDesign.tel today quite happy with it

how about you are things with u ?

Shahid

[size]
I wish you find the top fashion designer for that domain so you could just kick off things just with one sale

Me? been busy with some client training session[/size]

by Telnic 2014-12-31, 5:39 pm

Telnic

Telnic: High-Flyer; Join date : 2014-12-30
Posts : 2903 Points : 11322
Reputation : 0
Warning level :

Post n°4

Re: Hyphens in domain names

by Telnic 2014-12-31, 5:39 pm

Shahid

11-01-2009 09:14 PM

not bad good luck hope i make some sales i guess might be training with you soon for some programming

good luck

Shahid

telrific

11-01-2009 09:46 PM

Shahid,

Did you get my reply to your last PM ?

telrific

11-01-2009 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2263)
Shahid,

Did you get my reply to your last PM ?

[size]
Got it. Thanks.[/size]

Shahid

11-02-2009 08:13 AM

good nice to know

dottel

11-04-2009 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shahid (Post 2262)
not bad good luck hope i make some sales i guess might be training with you soon for some programming

good luck

Shahid

[size]
Buzz me when you are ready :)[/size]

Sickboy.tel

11-10-2009 01:54 PM

Was never a big fan of hyphenated domain names, no matter the name I always liked it flowing as one.

telrific

11-10-2009 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sickboy.tel (Post 2434)
Was never a big fan of hyphenated domain names, no matter the name I always liked it flowing as one.

[size]
Nohyphendomainsareobviouslybettertoanyonebuyingdom ainsandadvertisingthemforclaritywhodoesntunderstan dthat

InaperfectworldIthinkweallwouldagreeandhavethesame opinionandforthemostparteveryonedoeshowever ;)[/size]

Sickboy.tel

11-10-2009 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telrific (Post 2435)
Nohyphendomainsareobviouslybettertoanyonebuyingdom ainsandadvertisingthemforclaritywhodoesntunderstan dthat

InaperfectworldIthinkweallwouldagreeandhavethesame opinionandforthemostparteveryonedoeshowever

[size]
But who on earth even wants a domain name like that? Even if it is hyphenated, it's not going to very attractive. If you speak a domain name, even if it is a few words, then you say your name ‘Good Solid Drivers .tel

And if you get it put on business cards or letter heads, you don’t really want it to be more than three words long anyway. So I would always type it like: GoodSolidDrivers.Tel making sure a person can see the different words, but the domain written as one.

Nohyphendomainsareobviouslybettertoanyonebuyingdom ains

or

NoHyphenDomainsAreObviouslyBetterToAnyoneBuyingDom ains

Domains on paper/screen are different to domains from the mouth.[/size]

telrific

11-10-2009 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sickboy.tel (Post 2436)
But who on earth even wants a domain name like that? Even if it is hyphenated, it's not going to very attractive. If you speak a domain name, even if it is a few words, then you say your name ‘Good Solid Drivers .tel

And if you get it put on business cards or letter heads, you don’t really want it to be more than three words long anyway. So I would always type it like: GoodSolidDrivers.Tel making sure a person can see the different words, but the domain written as one.

Nohyphendomainsareobviouslybettertoanyonebuyingdom ains

or

NoHyphenDomainsAreObviouslyBetterToAnyoneBuyingDom ains

Domains on paper/screen are different to domains from the mouth.

[size]
It was simply an exageration for effect is all

Look at the examples down the right side at tel-buy.com

This whole thread only suggested that hyphen domains do have value in the world, and it's growing, and especially will have greater value in Telpages.com Search Engine According to Kash and Henri ...

[ Disclaimer: Some of the material posted here is humorous in nature or references material that is humorous in nature. If the posted humor is over your head, or you are offended or insulted by the material posted, please re-read the post and take the posted comments in the spirit with which it was intended, i.e. lighten up ! ][/size]

dottel

11-10-2009 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sickboy.tel (Post 2436)
But who on earth even wants a domain name like that? Even if it is hyphenated, it's not going to very attractive. If you speak a domain name, even if it is a few words, then you say your name ‘Good Solid Drivers .tel

And if you get it put on business cards or letter heads, you don’t really want it to be more than three words long anyway. So I would always type it like: GoodSolidDrivers.Tel making sure a person can see the different words, but the domain written as one.

Nohyphendomainsareobviouslybettertoanyonebuyingdom ains

or

NoHyphenDomainsAreObviouslyBetterToAnyoneBuyingDom ains

Domains on paper/screen are different to domains from the mouth.

[size]
Yes I agree with you and prefer non-hyphen domains;)
but again everything goes to personal preference and the success depends on developement and promotion.

Cheers[/size]

Shahid

11-10-2009 07:53 PM

i don't mind a hyphen for reselling in a very rare case but will never use one for my self, even regret the ones i had in past or have now

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